Jake Kastleman (00:00.182)
Welcome to No More Desire, where we build a mindset and lifestyle for lasting recovery from porn. My name's Jake Castleman and I'm excited to dive in with you. Let's get started, my friend.
Jake Kastleman (00:18.39)
Did conversations about sex rarely, if ever, occur in your home growing up? How did this affect you and what does your relationship to sexuality look like today? Are you worried about how to talk to your own sons about sex? Do you feel your sexuality has been strained or misused? Do you want to convey the beauty and meaning of this topic to your own kids, but don't really know where to start or even how to feel it yourself?
Today, my guest, Sam Gilman, and I are going to address every single one of these questions and more, teaching you how to transform your own relationship to sexuality from a cycle of resisting and indulging to blessing and inviting. If this sounds strange, then this episode is for you. If you can imagine feeling that sexuality is positive, beautiful, blessed, good, even innocent, but just don't know how to get there.
Sam and I will show you how today we will speak from a powerful Christian perspective that can empower you and your family, whether you're Christian or not. Sam Joelman is a trauma therapist with over 20 years of experience specializing in men's issues and sexual trauma recovery. He's worked with hundreds of men and women and is an author and speaker. Sam's book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, is a fantastic work.
It has hundreds of five-star reviews and is quoted by John Eldridge as the most important book on sexuality you will ever read. It takes a refreshing approach and is desperately needed in an age when men's sexuality is either blown up into something dirty or minimized into something dull as a tool for selfish pleasure. Today, Sam and I flip all this on its head, giving you and your sons the practical tools you need to build something profound together so you can actually bless your sexuality.
Before we dive in, a reminder to download my free ebook, The Ten Tools to Conquer Cravings, or sign up for my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Porn. These resources are your next step to get sober, and you'll find them at Nomoresire.com slash tools. All right, let's get started.
Jake Kastleman (02:34.616)
Sam Joelman, welcome, man. It is such a pleasure. You're a person of passion, of joy, talking about something that's so important and you bring so much hope to so many people. So it's just a privilege, man.
Sam Jolman (02:46.552)
Jake, thanks for having me. It's fun to be invited on and I've I've been looking forward to this day together.
Jake Kastleman (02:53.336)
Yeah, yeah. We're gonna talk about some really cool things. We're going to do a two episode little series together. So one will launch today, the next one will launch in a couple of weeks. so today we're gonna talk about kind of the surrounding topic of the sex talk, right? Your book is the sex talk we never got, right? So kind of how we're gonna talk about our own relationship with sexuality.
That we develop into adulthood, but then how to help our kids develop a healthy sexuality and what that looks like. So I'm gonna, you know, there's so many great things written in your book. And so I'm actually gonna use a few of those quotes to get people interested because it's so great. so I want to start with this one. In your book, you say we cannot afford to banish our sexuality because what is left unformed will only become malformed. Yes. So
Many people, I think especially those of us raised in purity culture, 'cause that's kind of an undertone of this episode is is, you know, how do we develop a healthier relationship with sexuality, especially those of us who've dealt with that kind of purity culture mentality, right? Uh-huh. we may be inclined to believe ignore sexuality in your kids, perhaps don't give it attention. The less focus you give it, it'll be less of a problem.
Why does that approach fall short, both for ourselves and for our kids?
Sam Jolman (04:23.724)
Yeah. You know, because curiosity is an innate part of our dignity, our humanity, what I believe is God has wired into us. We're made, you know, sort of like, here's the world, go explore it. Right. You could say, well, was some of what I believe was given to Adam and Eve. Go take this thing for a ride. Right. And so curiosity is an innate.
Part of being human and curiosity directed towards human sexuality is innate. In fact, researcher Emily Nagoski says, you know, she's debating, you know, this whole idea of we call it a sex drive. And she says it doesn't actually function in the body like a drive, like a drive for food, for shelter, for oxygen.
even for security, even for love, right? those are drives, meaning you're gonna die without Nobody's ever died for lack of sex. So she she says that there's research.
Jake Kastleman (05:33.324)
Some of us some of us believe we will die for lack of But you're saying that's not a fact.
Sam Jolman (05:36.718)
This is true.
Sam Jolman (05:41.678)
It's not a fact. You will not actually die. And you know, that's good news. and yes, you many people have maybe felt like they were going to. it can be a very strong, obviously, very strong and powerful desire within you, but you won't die without it. Nevertheless, it is most like Emily Nagoski says, curiosity. Right? That thing where you're like, I wanna, I wanna go after that. I'm really intrigued about that.
Right? That natural feeling you have when you're curious about something. That's what sexuality is most like in the body, in our brain, in our experience. So again, why do you need to not just avoid talking about sex or avoid your own sexuality? Because it is innately, you are made to be curious about your own body, about sexuality. It is intriguing. Bodies are intriguing.
Your own body is intriguing. Sexuality is intriguing, especially right when you hit even for children who are pre-sexually awakened, right? Children who aren't haven't hit puberty, the idea of just being curious about where do babies come from? Why do I have these body parts? Right. you know, I have three sons and the bathtime conversation of around even their own penises.
Dad, what are these little balls for? Right?
Jake Kastleman (07:13.238)
Right. Right. That's a question. It is like what is going on down here? Yeah.
Sam Jolman (07:17.262)
It's a natural and good question, similar to how they would have a question about anything else in their lives. So that's why if what you do is simply avoid it, your children are going to find answers somewhere. You don't want your children going to an internet search for their answers to sexuality, right? Or their friends or their peer group.
But it's innate. You were made to have your questions answered about life, including sexuality.
Jake Kastleman (07:53.474)
Yes. I love that. I love that. I love the I love like the the the passion and the fire and just the joy with which you express that and the it being known as instead of a sexual drive, which is now that I'm thinking about that term, it's very I don't know if it's appropriate for me to say it's like a masculine oriented. It's like an objective. Yes. It's like I have a drive towards a goal. Right. Yeah.
open, expressive, imaginative, you know, hum innate human sense of this desire to explore and to understand and to Yes. Do this thing, right? That's built in.
Sam Jolman (08:32.909)
Right. Right. And, you know, I've I would say even, you know, sexuality that has that kind of drive to it will feel not good to your partner. Right. It will feel like you're you're you're trying to accomplish a task. you know, I had a a woman say to me, and she's given me permission to share this. I s shared this in the book. You know, she said, I always knew what kind of day my husband had.
Based on how he would try to have sex with me that night. And there were some days, she would say, where I felt like the thing he needed to conquer so he could have a W for the day, right? A win. And and she said it felt awful. It wasn't romantic. It wasn't intimate. it was like, you're using me to just get.
Get that drive. I need to have a, I need to have a win. I need to get off. that that's not good sexuality. So treating it like a drive instead of desire, instead of curiosity, sets us all up for bad things. And you're right, it it tends to be even a way that we rank our masculinity, right? Like, I just have a high sex drive, right? And it and it kind of comes across as he's really masculine.
Right. As opposed to, well, or maybe you're just really anxious. you know, like I think about that that that client's husband. And I think I wonder what it would have been like if he had come home and just said, Hey, I had a crappy day. Can I talk to you? Just talk about my day. Right. And and and actually let himself get some genuine comfort. Right. And even if
Jake Kastleman (10:04.343)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (10:20.824)
Yes.
Sam Jolman (10:28.088)
then then they did make love, how much better it would have been. Right? But I I I I have compassion on that guy of like, I think you just needed help.
Coming down from your day, the stress and the failure and all of those emotions that got piled up inside of you. I think that's what sometimes guys call their drive is their really anxious, stressed out body. Because that does register in the body as a need. I need to come down. I am in fight or flight. I need to soothe.
Jake Kastleman (10:57.026)
Yes.
Jake Kastleman (11:11.702)
That's right. Yes. And I I know for me, ooh, probably a few years, maybe a a few years or so into my own recovery of a actually getting some time of sobriety under my belt from pornography, making this discovery and understanding my gosh, when I crave porn or I crave masturbation, it's emotional dysregulation.
Like I'm sure there were plenty of people saying that at the time, but I just hadn't heard them. And to me, that was it blew my mind. It was revolutionary. I was like, wait a second. So you mean to say when I'm like really angry and I and I haven't dealt with that, that can translate into a craving. Or like if I'm really anxious, right? I dealt with a lot of social anxiety growing up. That can translate into a craving for masturbation or for porn. Yes. That just and I started to realize that that.
That blew me away. Yes. And that's the difference between that that drive that you're talking about, feeling driven, like I have to have this and that craving versus a natural curiosity and like a joy about sexuality and a desire for it, which is very human and very positive.
Sam Jolman (12:24.268)
Yep. Right. Yep. Yeah. And s same journey for me that you described of like, wow. it was it was actually very helpful to realize, like, this isn't just me being lustful. Yeah. Right. And and just I'm so broken and sinful. And that that constant loop of like, I'm just so bad. And that's why I keep doing this. Right. I'm not, I'm not trying to say there isn't a place to honor, you know, the selfish nature of
Jake Kastleman (12:52.695)
Of a habit.
Sam Jolman (12:54.094)
Of porn use, right? But like, or the sinful objectification, right? I'm not saying there isn't lust, but just to notice like it's not just lust. It's also like, I have a body and it gets really dysregulated. And it sometimes it needs soothing. And that can feel like life or death. Yes. In your body. And that actually does need an outlet. Just not a sexual one.
Right. But yes, you probably need somewhere you're gonna go to talk about that. You need to go on a run, you need to breathe. Like just even
Jake Kastleman (13:34.304)
Journal pray. Yes. Go through the emotions. Spend time with people. You need a yeah, you have to have a place to be able to get those needs met, right? Yes.
Sam Jolman (13:44.418)
Yes, nobody can stay in a constant state of hypervigilance or a constant state of anger or a constant state of guilt or shame or loneliness. Like those those emotions will need you to attend to them.
Jake Kastleman (14:00.386)
Yeah, you're talking about my entire childhood and teenage years and like into my early twenties. That's I was always in that state. I I remember when I was like nineteen, I realized that I had my shoulders hunched up like some degree, like where had all this tightness in my traps. And I started realizing that and relaxing my shoulders and be like, whoa, have I done that my whole life? Yeah. And when I reflect back on that, it's like, geez, it's no wonder I sought something out to try to
Seek comfort or to soothe that feeling that it was just always so uptight. Right. And we could just not know that's happening. Right. I didn't know that was happening. Yeah. Exactly.
Sam Jolman (14:36.226)
Yep. Yeah.
Sam Jolman (14:40.832)
Right. Right. I can remember noticing in my body, like, I think I want a hug. You know, and it was like revolutionary even in my marriage to be able to say, like, can I have a hug? Right? To be able to relate out of like a felt sense of I just need comfort. I need I need somebody to hold me first, you know, and
Jake Kastleman (15:07.096)
And actually realizing that and being like, whoa. Yes.
Sam Jolman (15:10.348)
I have a name for that and be like, that's that sensation. Yeah. Yes.
Jake Kastleman (15:16.15)
'Cause it all just felt like I want sex, right? Yes. Like almost every feeling of stress, every hard feeling translated into I need sex.
Sam Jolman (15:26.136)
Yes. Yep. Yep. Or that preoccupation, right? Of like right, right, right, right, right.
Jake Kastleman (15:33.002)
The preoccupation. I like that. The preoccupation is so that's so much what it feels like, is that preoccupation. Real quick before we get back to the episode, I want to take a few minutes of your time to just share a story of one of my clients. Because if you're someone who's been battling with porn addiction yourself and you're feeling stuck, I know that you relate to this. My client Gabe came to me discouraged about the impact his porn use was having on his life. It got in the way of his work, his productivity, it made him feel more distant from his wife and kids.
Sam Jolman (15:43.854)
Bye.
Jake Kastleman (16:02.53)
And it caused him to experience brain fog, lack of motivation, and a lack of confidence. Gabe was a good man. He valued his family. He had a good job. He had ambition. He could even get a decent streak of sobriety sometimes, but nothing long-lasting. Gabe's problem was not discipline. It was a lack of knowledge and skill. He didn't understand how to regulate emotion and train his nervous system properly, so that things like cravings, anger, and other painful emotions didn't take him over.
By the time he finished work with me, Gabe had five months of sobriety without a single relapse. His perspective on life had changed dramatically, and for the first time, he felt fully connected and in harmony with his principles and who he was. I'm going to share a few of his words directly. I would leave every session with Jake feeling like my eyes had been opened to a new level of understanding that changed my self-talk, my relationship with my spouse, and my ability to connect with my children. The program felt incrementally tailored.
To my needs and had the exact building blocks to have a sober lifestyle and mindset. I've kept in touch with Gabe since this. His success has continued, and he is now nine months sober, and I'm really happy for him. Gabe's story is one of many. Men who've joined my intensive coaching program and experienced sobriety. If you want to join these men, dig deep and finally be sober for good. Head to nomordesire.com/slash coaching to learn more.
All right, back to the show, my friend. We could talk more on this a lot, but I want to kind of focus back in on this, this, the sex talk, right? And kids, this is all helpful, I think, for parents to realize about their youth or about themselves, right? It's so powerful. Why do you think going along with this? Obviously, there's so many strong feelings with sexuality. Why do parents shy away from sex talks with their kids? And
And I want to say on that, you have these tragic stories, three tragic stories of parents failing to have any nature of conversation surrounding sexuality with their kids. my gosh, those were hard hitting. But but why do we shy away from this? Why is it hard for for parents to do that and to start to to have those conversations? Mm-hmm.
Sam Jolman (18:24.716)
You know, I I would say it is not ill hearted parents, meaning it's most of the time it is not because parents are ill intended. Meaning I think most parents want to come through for their children. It I would say it is probably your own story of shame around your own sexuality, primarily. meaning there are generations of neglect in this area.
Of how we inform or how we've been informed. Meaning, like the simple question of did you get a sex talk? How did that go? Did you feel like your sexuality was honored and had a place both in your family, in conversation, where your curiosity could be honored and you could ask questions? Or where it was spoken to you, right? Where you were per pursued and it was acknowledged that you were coming of age or that.
Sexuality was a thing, right? Just simple things like that, let alone your story, your sensuality, like the design of your body for pleasure. and then on top of that, just how you know, I believe the realm of evil seeks to join shame to our arousal. So
Jake Kastleman (19:48.952)
The realm of evil seeks to join shame to our arousal. That that's so so well said. So well said.
Sam Jolman (19:57.39)
I think it comes early for all of us, right? The realm of evil wants to shut down your sexuality because your body's designed for pleasure, right? You are wired to enjoy this world, including sexually, right? You have three to four thousand taste spots on your tongue. That's not just a survival thing. You are made to enjoy the taste of good.
brisket, which I'm trying to perfect currently.
Jake Kastleman (20:30.99)
Are you sm are you smoking it? Is that what you're doing?
Sam Jolman (20:33.932)
Brisket, yes. Yes. Yes, I suppose there's other ways to brisk.
Jake Kastleman (20:37.186)
My yeah. My brother in law makes just he makes brisket so well and ribs so well, it's ruined it for me when I go to a restaurant and eat them. I'm just like, it's not as good as my brother. It's not. Yeah.
Sam Jolman (20:48.96)
Yes. And and and so that's you have a well-informed palate. Right? You've let yourself come to know, that's good, right? Or good chocolate, right? Or name anything, right? Why do you love your favorite foods? Just think about a meal you had where you were like, that's good. Right? I think that taste and see that the Lord is good, right? Is literal that you are meant to taste, taste.
Things God gave you. Your senses, taste, touch, sight, smell, hearing were meant to help you fall in love with good things, but God. And so I think sexually, you have eight to ten thousand nerve endings, both men and women, in your genitalia. You're designed for pleasure. Evil, the realm of evil hates that because you're gonna want to look for a God in the in the
In your experience of pleasure, you're gonna want to look for a God who made all of this. So evil wants to shut you down. And that could be through the subtleties of names you were called, right? And that's not so subtle, but how was your body described by your peers? What jokes did your uncle make about you when you were coming of age? Or you know, I
I have a man who told me the story. He can remember you know, being in the bath at age like four or five, and his mom saying, you know, he was curious about his penis. And he his mom said, Don't touch that. That's bad. And you're like, and again, is that an evil mother? No.
Jake Kastleman (22:39.05)
Right, she didn't mean it that way.
Sam Jolman (22:41.688)
She probably was speaking out of her own shame of we don't touch those body parts, right? I know people in in homes where saying penis and vagina were swear words. And you you couldn't say that, right? And I and again, I just want you to hear like on one level, that's subtle, but its impact is not. It begins to s show a story of shame and sexuality.
So, but it could be as extreme as sexual abuse. Right? Where somebody took advantage of you and you actually discovered sexuality in the realm of violation. But it felt like it was you. Like something must be wrong with me. I must have brought this on somehow, right? I'm just wanting you to hear it's not just whether you got a sex talk or not, it's also and what played out.
in the story of your sexuality as you came of age. you know, zero to eighteen. And of course beyond, but like those formative years. So,
Jake Kastleman (23:51.01)
So for parents, it's like going through that healing journey themselves with their own sexuality and gaining awareness and insight into yes, what their feelings are surrounding it is is crucial.
Sam Jolman (24:04.174)
Yes, that's so well said. Exactly. Right. Do your own reflective work. In other words, the story, how do you talk to your kids about sex starts with how have you addressed your own story of shame and sexuality? What will happen as you start to talk freely about this? Can you what will you feel in your own body as you tell your children the names of body parts, the private parts?
Jake Kastleman (24:33.196)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. I I I like that. It's very true. And so
One of the things that you say in your book is that our sexuality is not growing with the rest of us. And you talk about, can't remember exactly what it was that was, but like the 1950s macho mentality or something like that. That the that we've changed in a lot of ways since that as far as masculinity goes. Right. And your your book is very much focused on male sexuality, right? And understanding that it's a to bless it rather than to try to control it or cage it or all these other.
ways that we see it. So, you know, how has our perception of sexuality not evolved? And where are we at with that with male sexuality? What does that look like in our current society, in your view?
Sam Jolman (25:30.86)
Yeah. You know, that was a quote from a journalist, Peggy Orenstein is her name. And she she did these interviews with young men and young women, like high school and college age. And she was just trying to get a pulse on, hey, what's the current zeitgeist of sexuality? How are young, young adults talking about sexuality, young people? and her conclusion was.
Gosh, it feels like for men, we're growing in our ability to talk about like the emotional life of a man or the spiritual life of a man. Right. Like now we have a more full picture of masculinity. We don't, we're not all trying to be the Marlboro man anymore. Right. Like we actually believe, you know, that the just the the ways that I think it were like the amount of studies on like how fathers
Like millennial fathers and beyond are showing up for their sons, right? Or their kids in general, not just their sons. You know, they're there's so much more present, right? And I think that's the fruit of we're growing, we're understanding this. But her conclusion was it doesn't feel like the way we talk about sex is changing. In other words, there's still such a culture among men of getting some, right? The locker room talk, and it's it's it's scoring and
Her conclusion was, this was profound for me. She said, when it comes, she's speaking here of men and women, she says, when it comes to sex, if I could summarize it in one sentence, it would be that women, when it comes to sex, women need to learn to connect to their bodies. Men need to learn to connect to their hearts. And this idea of we're still learning how to connect the heart to sexuality.
For example, I have men that come in my office and say, I feel like I'm more like the woman in the relationship because I actually like the emotional stuff. I actually want to emotionally connect. You're like, what? Why do you need to give the little intro of I'm more like the woman because I like emotional connection, right? And you're like, you are men are just as equally.
Jake Kastleman (27:54.989)
You
Sam Jolman (27:58.818)
Wired for emotional connection and attachment as women. By the way, women are also just as wired for sex and sexual pleasure as men. They aren't more complicated, right? Sex
Jake Kastleman (28:13.352)
That's interesting because yeah, when you say that, I that is definitely the perception. Like that that's that's an assumption. Those are baseline assumptions. Yes.
Sam Jolman (28:22.712)
Right, that sex is for men and romance is for women. Right. Right. And and it's like, s no, but that's not true. There's not a fundamental innate thing that makes that true. So
Jake Kastleman (28:38.07)
I I wanna ask this. Do you think that part of that is that women often connect in groups, they express their emotions, they talk about hard things they go through and they're they tend to have a better culture in that within women and men don't. And so we often use sexual means for that emotional kind of release, but but we don't know that. Yeah. And so we think we're more sexual, and in reality, it's much more complicated than that.
Sam Jolman (29:07.107)
Yeah.
Jake Kastleman (29:07.948)
I would I would imagine that's part of it, at least. Yes.
Sam Jolman (29:11.95)
You know, to back up what you're saying, you're spot on. Dr. Sue Johnson, she's a re she has since passed away, but she was a researcher on adult attachment. So how adults attach. A primarily marriage adult attachment, how it how couples attach to each other. And she said, you know, she says, when when the women, the quote is something like this: when the women in my
Counseling office. When they say, my husband, all he wants is sex. What she says to her the women to help normalize what's going on for the men is, well, I would too, if the only place I could get touch beyond the football field was sex. In other words, as a man, where do you get physical affection? Where do you get hugs? Right?
For some men, sex is where they get touched, where they get, you know, embrace and affection. She even said, and this is so tragic to me, that boys from birth, baby boys are held less than girls. That is not an innate difference in need. But we've even in our culture, right? We've set men up.
That affection, emotional intimacy, right, are not masculine. And so, yeah, of course they want sex a lot because that's the place they can get affection and feel close. Right. When I when there are certain men that I talk to who will say sex is the only place I feel wanted in my life.
So yeah, of course you're gonna be driven towards that if you don't have this bigger vision of what intimacy is. so I think you're on to something there with how we you know, back to the sex talk. I think it's why it's important that we don't just talk about the mechanics. So, right? Step one, deal with your story. Step two, how are you gonna narrate your body, your your
Sam Jolman (31:32.044)
Your children's bodies to them. Are we going to talk about body parts and bodies? Right. Use the words, bless bodies as good, pleasure as good, as I've said, right? The third thing would be do more than talk about the mechanics. Right? Because a lot of people who get the sex talk, it's here's the birds and the bees, here's how the plumbing works. Now stay pure.
Sam Jolman (32:00.686)
Don't screw it up.
Jake Kastleman (32:02.752)
And also Drew Drew Boa puts it really well. He says, in purity culture it's it's also sex is dirty, so save it for someone you love.
Sam Jolman (32:17.968)
that's so awful. So spot on. That's so spot on.
Jake Kastleman (32:19.628)
When he said that I was
Exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Yes.
Sam Jolman (32:27.158)
Right. It it it it it starts to make it feel like something to be scared of. And you know, maybe you got the plumbing conversation. Right. and I would say, you know, it's so important that the romance talk is just as important to the sex talk as the mechanics. So my boys ask questions like, how do you know when you want to?
marry somebody? I'm like, that is such a good question.
How do you ask a girl out? wait, what is divorce? Right? A conversation on how what is divorce? Why is so so so and so's parents divorced? What even is that? How does that happen? Right? Those are just as important, those are sex talk conversations. Just as much as how the plumbing works and how babies are made.
Or one of my sons asked, like, how do you kiss a girl? Right? And when do you know if you want to do that? those are all what you're doing is giving your sons, and I know we're talking about boys here, but your sons and your daughters, this would all be true. You're giving them the fuller picture that sex isn't just a bodily function. It has this heart to it.
And it's about emotional connection and intimacy as much as anything.
Jake Kastleman (34:06.348)
Yeah, 'cause I I think we really do in our current culture, we make it seem that way that sex is a physical act. Right. And we've taken out so much of the I don't love using the word sacredness with it because I feel like that's also something where we'll say sex is sacred, but that's not the feeling. It's like it's secret. Like definitely don't talk about it.
Sam Jolman (34:30.358)
It's so well said. Right.
Jake Kastleman (34:32.588)
Right. I would say maybe a better word is it's it's joyous or it's creative, it's expressive, like it's something that's meant to be full and beautiful. Not it's not just about the mechanics, like you're saying. In fact, you say it's about the what word do you use? The was it the poetics? I can't remember. Yes. I think that was it.
Sam Jolman (34:55.17)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, there's a writer, Esther Perel. She's a I don't know if she's a person of faith, but she she's a writer on sexuality. And she that's a line from her. She called it the mechanics of sex and then the poetics of sex. No. Again, doesn't mean you have to be a poet, but she's describing the realm of desire. right. There's the how the body works and how the body moves through sex, but then there's
How your heart shows up to it or doesn't.
Jake Kastleman (35:29.88)
Right. Exactly. So powerful. So powerful. So let's say that someone listening to this podcast, their their son, they're pretty certain, or maybe they n maybe they suspect or they know that their son or daughter is viewing porn. Right. how do they bring that up, right, within this context of
Sexuality is about curiosity and it's something that's positive and beautiful, and it's something that's you know, it's not this dirty, sinful thing, right? We're trying to bless our sexuality. How do they talk them about that? Mm-hmm.
Sam Jolman (36:14.638)
first, I'd say, you know, it's gonna feel extremely hard. And it's gonna feel like there's a right way to do this and you're gonna screw it up. And I'd say breaking the silence is half the battle. Evil, the realm of evil, as I said, wants to join shame to arousal. And and
Also to create silence and secrets. So when we feel shame, we want to hide. And so the pull is to stay, to get somebody, especially young, in that silence and secret shame, sin, shame, sin, shame, right? That they keep acting out and staying in their shame. So I'd say, you know, 50% of it is just that you're willing to and you do break the silence and talk to them.
It will feel awkward. and it's just because this is so important. This second thing I'd say is do not punish. again, you know, if there there's a difference between restricting access.
Right. Meaning we have filters, we limit access. Access only happens in certain places. So that they're not in their room alone with a device. Right. There's all these ways we can structure in and boundary access. And all of that is important. I would say,
I would not lead with punishment. In fact, I would reward them for telling you. So if they are open to talking to you about it, like celebrate them that they are they are breaking silence with you and they are talking to you. Why is this true? Why am I saying don't punish, right? Because we'd say, Well, isn't that wrong?
Sam Jolman (38:25.014)
Is it less bad? Well, sure. Yes. Also, children have no idea, no idea what world they're entering into. Not at all. Well, I've told them, right? This is bad. Okay. But again, being told and having an idea of what porn might be and actually seeing it is way different. You just don't know what's coming. And so,
I will say you need to be aware that they will probably feel, you know, traumatized potentially by what they've seen. because again, you you could be told what pornography is, and then when you see it, it's it's such a world that is so violating in itself. And so just
To be aware that a child can't consent with full knowledge of what they're looking at. So to see it as they've been preyed upon by the pornographers, by a system, right? Like, well, who's to blame? I don't know, but a system that has allowed this, right? And hasn't valued human dignity or human sexuality. So to say.
This is not going to be a conversation which I punish you. I want to talk to you. I want to help you. And part of getting help is restricting access and creating boundaries around that. but that you're you're there to help and care. and then
You know, to a greater or lesser degree, can a child know why they're returning to porn, why they might be curious. again, you'll hear starting with blessing curiosity, a lot of what gets children there is curiosity. I was curious. you know, I I tell a story in the book about a couple that came to me, some parents whose fourteen year old had th this very thing.
Sam Jolman (40:43.554)
Their 14-year-old came to them and said, actually out of his own desperation, and said, I need help. and he had been looking at porn. How did it start? Because he was at school and he overheard some friends talking about kissing a girl. And he realized he didn't know how to kiss a girl and it made him really scared and actually ashamed. Like,
Or they were talking about girls they liked, even. I think it was even as simple as that. And he got scared, like, I don't know how to kiss a girl. Like, what happens if I like a girl and then I have to kiss her? So he he felt so embarrassed and so kind of scared, right? It's a again, very normal, natural question. And but he went home. And again, this is where I want you to hear. It's not that his parents were bad people.
It's just that already evil had brought shame to him. He felt embarrassed. And so he took that question to the internet. How to kiss a girl? Typed in an internet search. Of course, what popped up, not surprising, is some pornography. Because pornographers are looking for their next lifelong customer.
Jake Kastleman (41:58.848)
Yeah. Yes.
Sam Jolman (42:01.036)
And so that started this cycle. And he felt even worse that something must be wrong with my curiosity. Because look where it led. And he clicked on it because he was curious. He'd never seen it. Right? That's not the same as lust. That's not a knowledge of something and going after something. It was just his innocent curiosity. Well, that started this cycle.
And he got, you know, something must be dirty about me. he finally was willing to tell his parents and get help. and so I just want you to hear you know, anything in the realm of sexuality with your children to be aware that evil is already whispering shame to them about their bodies, about their sexuality, about their curiosity.
about their attractiveness, maybe even about how perverted they are, just to be aware, evil is trying to get a voice of shame into your kids. So as much as you can be a voice of, I'm here for you, you're not dirty. you know, that's what you need to have in your heart as you approach your children.
Jake Kastleman (43:26.252)
Yeah. Because I think when we just like you said, that kid begins to not trust their curiosity. Look where this landed me. Look at this thing that I can't get out of. And that doesn't just translate to sexual curiosity. It translates to my sense and gift for curiosity as a whole. I begin trusting and not wanting to feel that and not pursuing curiosity.
Yeah, this is unsafe to feel curious.
Sam Jolman (43:56.642)
Yes. Well said. Right. Right. It doesn't just stay siloed over here. No. Right? Their shame becomes about them as a whole. Well said.
Jake Kastleman (44:07.256)
Exactly. It's so I think this'll kind of be a wrapping up question and then we'll launch the next episode after that. But
You talk about the sex talk in a much deeper way than just a one one and done, right? Sitting down and talking about the mechanics. What should this really look like for parents? 'cause it's not just a one time thing. So so what does this dynamic look like in them them communicating this with their kids?
Sam Jolman (44:44.492)
Yeah. You know, this is an idea that has not originated with me, but it is so good and so important to understand that the sex talk is really like several hundred one minute talks. Meaning this is meant to be an ongoing dialogue you have with your children. and and and so that it's being brought up here and there, they don't need and nor will they probably be able to handle an hour long lecture.
Right. So I don't recommend you sitting down and and trying to let's cover it all, right? You will overwhelm them. you know, most likely. so you know that you're sprinkling this in and you're truly trying to just meet the thirst of their curiosity. So again, you know, being able to to gauge when they've
Had enough or meaning like dad, what are these balls under my penis for? those are called testicles. okay. That might be all your son needs. But he might ask, well, what do they do? Well, they produce cells called sperm. okay. But then he might say, Well, what do those cells do?
Right. So what you're doing is you're just trying to meet the thirst of their curiosity. And that might be over months that you have 10 different one minute talks that lead to a full explanation of what sex is, but you've gotten there at the rate of their curiosity, right? So, you know, and when children are young, largely what you're doing is narrating their bodies to them. Your body is so cool.
And you're just helping them see that they are the artwork of God. Your b isn't it cool what your body can do from jumping off a rock to riding a bike, right? And to, yes, and you have these private parts that are special, right? And again, you're you're building these conversations over time. Obviously, as they get older, it becomes more dialogue based. I now have teenagers, and so some of the conversations we have are more than a minute.
Sam Jolman (47:11.726)
But they're about, yeah, what do you think about how that guy treated that woman in Chipotle, in the grocery store, or this movie, or what do you think about those lyrics on that song? Right? We're having more dog, or what do you think it's like to what do you think it means to treat a woman well? Or they'll bring home questions like, Dad, what does 69 mean?
Jake Kastleman (47:39.406)
And so you just at that point they're a teenager, so you just explain it to them. Right.
Sam Jolman (47:45.912)
So what I did actually say is I said, Well, there are different positions that you can have sex in and sixty nine is one of them.
Sam Jolman (47:57.838)
And again, I was good. I was trying to gauge like how much of their hunger right is here.
Jake Kastleman (48:04.974)
I I like that. That's good.
Sam Jolman (48:08.154)
and so then, you know, at the point that was they were like that sounds like, okay. Or but you're right, maybe you would go into, yeah, there's this thing called oral sex.
And you might say, You're telling your kids this and it's like, if you don't, their friends will.
Jake Kastleman (48:28.982)
Yeah, that's right.
Sam Jolman (48:31.054)
And and and you're you're setting a precedent that yes, we do talk about these things because they aren't inherently dirty. They don't have to be dirty.
Jake Kastleman (48:38.766)
Yeah.
So good. It's so so good. Well, thank you, Sam. We could talk about this another entire 45 minutes or longer, obviously. so I'm cutting it short in that way. But we're going to just close this conversation and then there will be a future episode very shortly that where we will talk about the next topic, which is on how do I discuss masturbation with my kids, which is a complicated one, I would say. So
Sam Jolman (49:10.808)
T.
Jake Kastleman (49:12.18)
We will do that. if people wanna connect with you, you know, get in touch with you, read your book, The Sex Talk You Never Got, I will put all that in the show notes. is there anything you I wanna wanna share with people on that? If they've heard you and they wanna connect.
Sam Jolman (49:27.33)
You know, best place to get a hold of me or connect with me and read more on this is my Substack, samjolman.substack.com. But yes, would love to have you read my book wherever you wherever you buy your books, it's there. and you can go to my website to find out more, samjelman.com. but Jake, thank you. This is such important work you're doing and offering to people these kinds of conversations.
Jake Kastleman (49:53.39)
Thanks, Sam. You too, man. Pleasure to have you on.
Thanks for listening to No More Desire. It's a genuine blessing for me to do the work that I do, and I wouldn't be able to do it without you, my listeners, so thank you. If you've enjoyed today's episode, do me a favor. Follow this podcast, hit the notification bell, and shoot me a rating. The more people who do this, the more men this podcast will reach. So take a few minutes of your time and hit those buttons. And if you want to take your sobriety to the next level, check out my free workshop, The Eight Keys to Lose Your Desire for Corn.
Or my free ebook, The 10 Tools to Conquer Cravings. These are specialized pieces of content that will give you practical exercises and applied solutions to overcome corn addiction. And you can find them at NomorDesire.com. As a listener of the No More Desire podcast, you are part of a worldwide movement of men who are breaking free of porn to live more impactful, meaningful, and selfless lives. So keep learning, keep growing, and keep building.
that recovery mindset and lifestyle. God bless.
Jake Kastleman (51:12.96)
Everything expressed on the No More Desire podcast are the opinions of the host and participants, and is for informational and educational purposes only. This podcast should not be considered mental health therapy or as a substitute thereof. It is strongly recommended that you seek out the clinical guidance of a qualified mental health professional. If you are experiencing thoughts of suicide, self harm, or a desire to harm others,
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